Curse

Daesu · Jul 09, 2009, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If the players are not good, they should not be rewarded. If they can prove their skill then they deserve the credit. Simple as that. Why should they be rewarded for being subpar?

Subpar relative to what level of skill? Compared to your average PUG level skill, are they still subpar or the same?

Quote:

And besides, it's not like ANet haven't done something like this before. Remember when they nerfed Ursan?

Yes but they took a hell of a long time to nerf it after persistent complaints.

Quote:

But this is just a first-step of many. There's still quite a lot ANet would have to do to make their PvE game have even half the integrity it used to.

Also, ANet's decision to try to "extend the life of PvE" was another bad idea. Not only is Guild Wars just not built for it (no fee = no endgame) it's all unnecessary. You don't need to keep players in your game world for them to buy your next game, your games just have to be good. How do you think game developers stay in business?

That is certainly arguable. It must be important to ANet to have continuity otherwise they wouldn't invest in the Live team. If people leave GW1 for years before GW2 is released, then they would tend to view GW2 more as a totally new game, competing with the rest of the newly released games at that time. However, if they view GW2 as carrying on the investments/achievements that players have already made in GW1, that gives GW2 an edge over the other games.

I bet just before GW2 beta is released, there will be new quests and content for GW1 to link the two stories together. And those who have not bought EOTN for the HoM to transfer their achievements to GW2 would still be able to do that through that new content. It serves GW2 well if ANet encourages all GW players to move from GW1 to GW2, regardless of whether they bought EOTN or not. However, if that is the plan they wouldn't disclose that now until they have to, because that would impact EOTN sales for the time being.

Quote:

You missed what I was saying there.

Because of PvE skills the road to becoming a "successful player" is now very, very short. I.e. We now have a dumb-downed game, a *really* dumbed-down game.

There are so many build combinations I can learn, fine-tune, and perfect. Tons of team synergies I can develop with me and my heroes. But it's all pretty frivolous when the best thing for me to run is a Dragonslash/SY! War and Sabway.

So much potential, so much waste.

I know what you are saying and I agree that the game is dumbed down, but I have already stated my reasons as to why they needed to do that.

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I honestly could reply to the majority of the post but it's already starting to trail off too much from the thread (which I apologize in assisting with) and turning into a shitty post war (hence why I asked you to stop chopping my posts). Fortunately you provided this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I know what you are saying and I agree that the game is dumbed down, but I have already stated my reasons as to why they needed to do that.

How many successful games do you know that cater hugely to the impatient and inexperienced? Quite a few.
Now how many successful games do you know that don't? Quite a lot.

I would be more sympathetic towards ANet's decision if there wasn't an easy and apparent history showing how many games reward only the experienced players and that also require quite a lot of commitment and understanding. Guild Wars could've been one of those games.

Deimos Zargarda · Jul 09, 2009, 08:55 AM // 08:55

A new campaign would be needed, everytrhing gets boring with time.

lambda the great · Jul 09, 2009, 09:14 AM // 09:14

pve still looks pretty damn alive to me. Sure some places like Hod and Amnoon are ghost towns, but that;s because there isn't much to offer there.

Red Sonya · Jul 09, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmikau

...Why not discuss ways to make it living again?

Do you think it should be up to players or Anet to create a "PvE Renaissance?"

What are ways that you think a rebirth of PvE play could be achieved? Bonuses/Buffs for playing with other real people? Rewards obtainable only when others are in your party? New, large-scale incentives for creating new characters and playing through missions?

Do you think books and Zaishen quests have had a noticeable impact on PvE play, or are they just short-lived gimmicks? What could be improved about either?

What about Nicholas the Traveler? He seems effective in getting people out into remote locations, why not something similar for missions, or entire campaigns?

Do you think it's worth it to try and save PvE for what it's worth, or are we better off moping until GW2 arrives?

What do you think would most likely make people want to play PvE again, with or without real players?

Would you encourage the idea of non-monetary rewards for PvE play? Like the addition of new emotes or customization abilities as opposed to rewards that serve only to give you money or experience.

Just a few questions to get some ideas stirring. Maybe even just talking about ways we can make PvE better for ourselves will encourage people to want to play it. I already know I want to do some PvE with my monk.

Guild wars is dying dude and when GW2 comes out it will be nothing more than a graveyard of diehard fans who think it should last forever. It's soon to be a hasbeen and nothing more. There's too many other great games out there now to spend time just grinding for some silly titles which is all that is left in GW after you finish all the stories. PVP is a joke anymore because they have ruined all the great skills and builds. Might as well call it PVP for romper room kiddies.

There was a time when this game was fabulous. When it was fresh and new man those were the days. They actually ruined it when they put out Nightfall and those powerful player made heroes. I can go through just about all of Prophecies now with just my 3 heroes. I remember when I couldn't get through it with 7 henchies hardly. lol

So, yep say goodbye to GW as it's now the romper room of online gaming and most especially when GW2 comes out. Hopefully Anet will have learned their lesson and put more item rewards in the game greater than 15^50 and +30hp.

SurrealFi · Jul 09, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

It's kinda fun watching all you PvP:ers in this thread. You whine about the pvp/pve split, making it harder for pve:ers to pvp (according to you!) you whine about gaining stuff in pve that cant be gained through titles in pvp (so what? you're hard core pvp:ers, you dont need buffs right?) you whine whine whine.

Seriously, stop it. I help pvp:ers all the time when they finally leave the arenas and tries to make it in the pve world. - Its not the pve players that has a hard time to adjust when they shift enviroment, it's the pvp players! - They dont understand the fact that you dont have to be 100% coordinated to enjoy casual pve. They dont understand the fact that some skills are "overpowered" in pve since they dont ruin the pve balance as such. They're overpowered comparing to your playstyle in pvp, nothing else. In the rest of the gw world, they make absolutely sence.
And most of them have such a hard time in pve they simply close the book and enters these forums to whine whine whine some more, cause there aren't enough people who wants to endure the drama most pvp players wants to have around them.

Understand that pvp helps a lot if you want to know game mechanics, but it wont help you at all to understand the differene between a team arena group and a PuG in Gate of Madness.

To whine about the difference between pvp and pve will NOT help us improve pve gameplay.

Red Sonya · Jul 09, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

For someone who talked a lot about whiners you sure did WHINE a lot WHINE BOY!! lol

payne · Jul 09, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It's dead because nobody in the PvE world knows what skill balance is, and continually advocates against a balanced PvE aspect of the game.

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

EXCUSE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE

i only run with balanced h/h teams in PvE

and i was happy vanquishing and everything on my ranger and paragon without PvE only skills and PvE versions of skills...
they are not needed in PvE

lets all just blame Sab with the damn conversion of the PvP teambuild into the PvE sab build

- problem solved :P

SurrealFi · Jul 09, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Red Sonya, check out contructive criticism, you might learn a thing or two. :-)

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 09, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torpoon

Ah, I was making that post in reference to a 'multiplayer' game called Guild Wars. I'm pretty sure if I ran in naked or with no weapon in almost any pug, they'd restart and kick me from their group. So yes, balance is needed for multiplayer.

You missed my point and focused soley on the fact that FF12 is a single player game. So here's a multiplayer challenge for you. On diablo2 LOD, player's can opt to take the magic item challenge. This is when you only use blue items. No uniques, no runics, no rares and no crafted items. You start the game in hell and try to beat it all the way through. This is not easy. But players do it all the time.

There is also a no charm challenge. We have other challenges in other mulitplayer games, like no final tier challenges in rts games, or the pistol challenge in fps games, where you defeat your foes with only a pistol or the cqc/knife challenge in mgs4. You can do the no flying unit challenge in wc3 where you must defeat your foe with just ground troops. You also have the 1 hero challenge in wc3 where everyone only uses 1 hero which is very hard as you can either attack or defend but not both.

When people want to achieve something special and challenge themselves, they can do so without requiring the game provider to fix everything so they have no choice. This is why I say that MMO player's are the most spoiled bunch of all. They seem to have forgotten what gaming is all about.

When you pay a monthly fee, then yes you have a right to complain if something is actually wrong. But with free to play games, you really don't have much to complain about, especially when the game has changed so much on purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

"God mode is not Just one build it is any number of overpowered Skills (90% of the "PvE version" of standard skills and PvE only Skills

If thats true then nerfing a few things here and there won't do any good at all because
we will simply find a new godmode and a new one after that. In order to truely balance
pve skill you first have to balance pve, which means monster skills, mob sizes, item drop
rate and gold frequency income.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Casual gamers tend to not care, nor notice when the builds they use get touched. You wouldn't believe how many people still ran the exact same cookie cutter Warrior's Endurance build after it was meganerfed for the next couple weeks.

I'm inbetween casual and hardcore myself and I notice. When they change skills I enjoy its
annoying because I enjoy them. I use different builds for different things but I generally have
and overall build I use most of the time.

As for warriors endurance. Yes the reduction to gained energy was bothersome at first
but with the extended overall duration of the skill and the fact it isn't a stance made the
skill better. Now I can run WE forever and never run out of energy when coupled with
counter attack. The fact that WE isn't a stance (like it is in pvp) means I can run
stances with it, like flail. So they actually buffed WE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

Don't be surprised. People spend countless hours in front of their monitor re-reading and proofing read posts/threads just so they can brainstorm/gather enough info to form a seemingly legitimate sugar coated argument on why they think the game should be the way they see it. You see it all the time. Quote wars back and forth. A lot of individuals don't really have any solid arguments of their own. They think it up as they go or as they are reading. Certain things never get mentioned until 1 person QQ's about it on a fan forum. I can name instances where certain things were problematic for months and not a single soul ever mentioned it or even knew it was a problem. In other words it wasn't a problem at all. Took 1 dumbass to start a thread and suddenly like a flock of Geese we hear from the vocal minority who were otherwise quiet and content. People are like sheep. Quick to jump on the bandwagon. I expect to be quoted, misinterpreted, spelling Nazi'ed, told I'm wrong, told I must be joking and perhaps chastised because that's just how we GEEKS do things.

GW's is/was/always will be strictly for entertainment and a past time. Some of you treat it like a second job. You know who you are and it sucks to be you...

I agree with you, the majority of the people who find the game broken or dead are those who spend far to much time on it. They act like guildwar mad scientists and break down builds and
then rebuild them to see exactly what makes them work and how best to exploit every skill. I
do not have that kind of time or that kind of dedication to this game or any game.

Basically what I am finding out from this topic is that people are unwilling to do things on their
own when they can exploit something and they have a problem with people making more money
than them. They also want people to either dedicate the same amount of time they do to the game
or quit. Which is not right in the least.

This is why I think anet should add in a godmode for every profession and make PvE a crazy
overly powered aspect of the game and then balance pvp. Set buy prices at the merchant for
every item skin, mod and inscription so prices stay the same since the market is never going
to be fixed anyways. Increase drop rates and reduce Hero drops, remove henchie drop steals
completely. Make heroes overpowered in normal mode but make them nearly useless in hard
mode. Grant benefits to guild and alliance members and make mission benefits depend on
the number of real players in the group.

If they did all of that, it would fix things a little. People would still complain but atleast everyone
could make the money they want and play how they want. Let people choose for themselves.
Then announce they are no longer going to touch PvE but will continue to monitor PvP and
work towards a complete balance of that aspect of the game. (which will never happen)

[QUOTE=Bryant Again;4734032]Snip for space.[/I]QUOTE]

I don't agree with the first part. A game can be very challenging in the beginning but as time
goes on and player's play the game more and more they know how to bypass the difficult parts.
That doesn't mean the game isn't challenging, it just means the players are experienced and
have evolved passed the basic's. That doesn't call for a complete overhaul of the game, thats
not fair to the players who have not reached the same level of skill.

When it comes the intergrity of guildwars I fail to see how nerfing skills fixes anything. The game
has already changed beyond its original concept and nothing will return it to the days of prophecies (pre-sorrows furnace). For example, you can't nerf PvE only skills because they were
included in the game to BE overpowered, this is the whole reason for having them in the first place. Many people were sick of the same old same and the idea of getting a set of skills that
would allow them to walk through the game they had been playing for years as gods had great
appeal. People had to work to get those skills as powerful as they could be before the book exploits. So nerfing all that hard work is the wrong thing to do.

So the integrity of the game is not gone, but it has changed. We now have heroes and titles
and a feature of the game that promotes the ultimate grind. the HoM. The game will never be
what it used to be and we need to accept that and find a new way to see it. PvE should not
be held to the same balancing standards of PvP. PvP is for serious play with other people. PvE
is for the relaxing fun and lol's.
And again, you can't balance skills without balancing the environment in which they are used.
Which requires a total overhaul of pve. Something that will never happen.

To the second part, if the majority doesn't care and are perfectly happy with the state of the game
as is, then why should anet change the game to accomodate the smaller group of hardcore
gamers who spend massive amounts of time on the game? Why should those perfectly happy
with how things are now be subject to the consequences of the nitpickers actions?

If the nitpickers have been playing the game for 4 years and are unhappy with how it is now, shouldn't they find something a bit newer with a more aligned focus and gameplay to what they
like instead of kicking the dead horse over and over again while they wait for the next horse (gw2)
to die?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again
If the players are not good, they should not be rewarded. If they can prove their skill then they deserve the credit. Simple as that. Why should they be rewarded for being subpar?

But see this isn't right or fair. You can not compare skill level when one group spends thousands and thousands of hours on the game and the other group only spend hundreds. You can't punish people for not playing as much or learning as fast as you. If people did not get rewarded they would not play.

That is the wrong attitude and is one reason why people are anti social. Playing games online isn't about fun, as it should be. Instead its about proving your superior over everyone else. If this is the case then none of you are any good at the game because you require anet to fix the problem because you have failed to find a way to overcome it.

capblye · Jul 09, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

You say that to you, the game is not broken, aka balanced.
But what is fun to others? If Anet includes my fun type of fun, will it wreck yours? No, because as you claim, you're a casual gamer who doesn't care about changes. But if Anet works towards your type of fun, will it wreck mine? Yes.
Understand?
It is. The game is supposed to be balanced. It's not. To many people, that matters. To you, it doesn't. However fixing the game doesn't affect you either way, in which case, making it the better alternative when it comes to making the choice of whether or not to implement balances.

Oh i completely understand, but i dont agree.
The point being missed here is that "Balance" is relative.
Why is the game supposed to be set up with your view of balanced?

Do you think the developers are dumb and didnt know what effect hero's would have?
Do you think they didnt know full well what would happen if they buffed a load of necro skills?
Nonsense. they knew exactly what they were doing. And with good reason.

Lets look at this from a /reality/game point of view.
Lots a gw players are casual gamers who cannot devote thousands of hours to the game. They want to be able to play for an hour, two at the most, before they have to go to work, or take their kids somewhere etc.
They cannot dedicate days on end over a weekend to playing a game.

But if you had your way, and they take away all of the team builds, buffs etc, then the casual player will now have to dedicate hours just trying to clear one area or mission.
No thank you.
If that happens, ill move on to a game that i can play for an hour or so and get satisfaction from.
The developers know this, believe me.
This is why I think the game as a whole is fine.

The reality is, no matter what anet does, players such as yourself will never be happy.
This is simply because you feel that players such as myself should not be able to clear a hard area in 30 minutes, when it took you 4 hours and 10 attempts 3 years ago, before the triple necro build or permasin.
You feel like there is some great injustice being done to you, when you cant sell some super leet item for a ridiculous amount of money now, because its over farmed.
Oh well.
life sucks, get a helmet.

Avarre · Jul 09, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurrealFi

And most of them have such a hard time in pve they simply close the book and enters these forums to whine whine whine some more, cause there aren't enough people who wants to endure the drama most pvp players wants to have around them.

Most good PvP players completed all aspects of PvE before progressing to PvP because it was more interesting and challenging.

Most good PvE players have extensive PvP experience.

Your entire post is full of self-supporting generalizations, which is pretty much par for the course for a new poster. Insert some quality control.

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I don't agree with the first part. A game can be very challenging in the beginning but as time
goes on and player's play the game more and more they know how to bypass the difficult parts.
That doesn't mean the game isn't challenging, it just means the players are experienced and
have evolved passed the basic's. That doesn't call for a complete overhaul of the game, thats
not fair to the players who have not reached the same level of skill.

Very true - if there was no power creep of skills, consets, PvE skills or title bonuses.

As the game aged it got easier. Not because we as players got better but because more and more additions made the game more and more simple. This isn't acceptable.

When something is overpowered you nerf it. If a certain build is soooo much better than any other build you have to balance it out, otherwise the game loses variety and it decays.

The whole point of PvE skills may to be overpowered, sure, or it might be the first wave of testing things that aren't affected by PvP. One thing *MANY* players were vocal about were apparently some of their builds being runined due to PvP balance. And no, you no longer have to "work" to become powerful, raising your rank equal to the PvE skill will only have a marginal effect - which is better since previously you became more powerful the more you grinded, turning GW into the one thing it set not to become: time>skill! Do you really want GW to be the shitfest that is other MMO's??

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

To the second part, if the majority doesn't care and are perfectly happy with the state of the game
as is, then why should anet change the game to accomodate the smaller group of hardcore
gamers who spend massive amounts of time on the game?

Good question. So why did they?

Why did they do a 360 on so much of their philosophy for a minority that is just as vocal and whiny but wants the compete opposite? Why did ANet cater to people who wanted imbalance, who wanted grind, who wanted to *benefit* from that grind, and who wanted a mindless game?

The bigger question is: why are you trying to defend this??

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

But see this isn't right or fair. You can not compare skill level when one group spends thousands and thousands of hours on the game and the other group only spend hundreds. You can't punish people for not playing as much or learning as fast as you. If people did not get rewarded they would not play.

That is the wrong attitude and is one reason why people are anti social. Playing games online isn't about fun, as it should be. Instead its about proving your superior over everyone else. If this is the case then none of you are any good at the game because you require anet to fix the problem because you have failed to find a way to overcome it.

Best. Quote. Ever.

A "good game" is one that caters to many spectrums of players: those who want something serious, and those who want something loltastic. Look at TF2: It provides casual and button-mashing public server play and has a pretty decent tournament crowd. Look at WoW: you can either mess around solo or actually get serious and raid, you can do some casual BG's or get serious with Arena.

If you wanted to just mess around in PvE, that's what NM should've been for. Instead for some reason ANet sought to make HM as easy as NM via PvE skills and other stupid crap.

So what we're left with is a game with a VERY easily reached skill level and no depth. Sure there may be thousands of skills and builds you could master but it's pointless to do so when there's one or two builds on PvXwiki that trump every single one of them. As I said earlier: so much wasted potential.

Sjeng · Jul 09, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Realistically, GW is an rpg with an ending.
There is no way to "revive" a story progressive adventure rpg without grinding, farming, or new areas.
In this case, unless we get new areas or quests, there is no way to "revive" it.

What we're asking for is to "revive" final fantasy 7, for example. Which, of course, is impossible. Once the playerbase had beaten the game, all that's left is farmers. A dead game is inevitable to ANY game. But the guild wars community is a bit too ignorant to realize that.
When you look at games like WoW and such, they're in the same problem.

^This. end of thread.
and removing PvE skills is bull.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

That'll only kill PvE even more.

Anet did the best they could with Nicholas and Z-quests. Those were great ideas to keep people playing. It'll get old after a while too, but at least it'll keep people busy for a while (untill everyone has achieved their goals, such as 20 slot bags / GWAMM / full HoM / Obsi armors etc.).

Targren · Jul 09, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

However if you read what fenix said, you would see that he is after the low req BDS to sell it. Not to keep. Your point is pointless.

Actually, I did read what he said. He said he wants to sell the low req BDS to buy a high-req BDS and some other stuff.

If the price drops on the low-req BDS, it only follows it will also drop on the high req bds. And the point about there being more of them dropping the price also goes to the other skins he mentioned.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jul 09, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

So optional skills, cons, and heros ruined the game.

OPTIONAL

If you don't like it don't use it. If you don't like it don't team with people who use it. Form a Super Uber Duber Guild no cons, PVE skills or Heroes allowed.

If others are so stupid or noobish then why do you want to team up with them? If they have to have these things and you don't then why are you trying to force them to play how you think it should be played.

That is what it comes down to. I play this way so every one else should have to.

You guys whine about something that is completely optional.

You think by taking things away it will somehow bring us back to how things were 3 years ago. WRONG!

The game is 4 years old PVE cons, heroes, and skills didn't make the game boring old age did.

New content will revive it for a short time but all new content will be is the same old thing in a shinny new wrapper.

Those who scream to take things away from the rest because you want things to go back to how they were are delusional. Nothing will change the game back to how it was. Because what made it how it was, was that it was new and different, and now hat has worn off over time and you guys think if only we could get rid of all this new stuff the game would go back to how it was when it was new. It will never, can never happen, sorry.

How can the game not get easier you guys have been playing it 8-12 hours a day for 4 years. I would hope given that type of experience it wouldn't offer much of a challenge, because if it did then you have learned nothing.

What you guys want is for the game to be changed to match you idea of challenge, well we pay no subscription fees, pay a one time purchasing fee and how exactly does that equate that Anet should continue to rewrite the game to meet your idea of challenge. I am shocked they do as much as they do now.

Anet has spoiled us and in doing so like spoiled children you rant and rave about how you want this and you want that, and any one who disagrees with you is a noob.

Squall, that guy over there can use PvE skills, heroes and cons, while I refuse to because I think they ruin the game, take them away.

The game is 4 years old, don't think it is challenging then use your imagination. If it is so easy then beat it with starter weapons and armor, don't use cons, heroes, or PVE skills. Only use 100 of the 200 attribute points. The reward you get from the game should be based on your own accomplishments. Don't worry about what others have done or are doing worry about what you are doing and have done.

I enjoy this game and I enjoy every little thing Anet has created and given to us to use in the game. I am amazed at how some of you guys can do some of the things you do, but the satisfaction I get from playing is based on my own accomplishments and I could care less about how someone else plays the game. Because it is just that a game. It is for enjoyment and to break the rhythm of every day life for a few hours a day. When I'm at my death bed I will not ponder what I have done in this game, nor will I have engraved in my tombstone here lies a man who beat Guild Wars with out using cons, heroes, or noobish PVE skills.

It is just a game guys enjoy it how you enjoy it and let others do so how they enjoy it. Don't like things you feel make the game too easy then don't use them. Think the game has become to easy then find ways to make it challenging. Like any game the challenge comes from what you make of it, the reward comes from achieving goals you have set for your self.

I think what would make you guys happy would be for Anet to create a hell mode. No rez shrines you get party wiped you go back to the town/outpost your party started from. Only LA, KC and Kamadon are open the rest of the map is recovered by the fog of war and the rest of the towns/outpost are hidden until you find them again. Area effects -50 health, -10 energy, -10 reduction in speed, -10 reduction in attack speed, -10 armor, -5 damage for weapons, - 1 health and energy degeneration, +1 sec increase in skill activation, all skills are the PVP versions and all foes are level 50, have elemental resistance as well as 25% reduction in hex and condition duration. When you die in Hell mode you lose 1 plat and 1 skill point, if you donot have 1 plat or 1 skill point you may not be resurrected by team members. To enter missions in Hell mode you must pay 10 gold zcoins. No PVE only skills, cons, heroes or henchmen can be used in Hell Mode. Only copper zcoins drops in Hell Mode, there is a player loot scale of 24 for 8, 18 for 6, 12 for 4, and 36 for 12 player areas in Hellmode as well. After all it is about challenge and nothing else.

Tenebrae · Jul 09, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

So optional skills, cons, and heros ruined the game.

OPTIONAL

If you don't like it don't use it. If you don't like it don't team with people who use it. Form a Super Uber Duber Guild no cons, PVE skills or Heroes allowed.

If others are so stupid or noobish then why do you want to team up with them? If they have to have these things and you don't then why are you trying to force them to play how you think it should be played.

That is what it comes down to. I play this way so every one else should have to.

You guys whine about something that is completely optional.

You think by taking things away it will somehow bring us back to how things were 3 years ago. WRONG!

The game is 4 years old PVE cons, heroes, and skills didn't make the game boring old age did.

No one is whining , just reflecting reality dude. If someone has the chance to do X thing in less time with ppl that use cons , gimmick builds and Overp PvE skills ...... 80% or more of them is going to refuse to make a "balanced" party , its just reality , go out and check it out.

Taking away those things arent going to bring back nothing , if you take the cookie you gave someone before , that someone is gonna get mad and leave. What ppl is saying is that if those boosts never existed or werent so overpowered things will be different ..... probably better.

Ofc they didnt kill the game but for god sake dont think all that those things did was for the best , also did damage . Damage to a dying game is quite dangerous , even is little.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 09, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Very true - if there was no power creep of skills, consets, PvE skills or title bonuses.

Even with the inclusion of super powered pve skills I still find the game challenging, then again I do not use the gimmick builds. I myself have just started using w/mo solo builds and so far, only in two areas of the game. I have never used consumables, but I wouldn't mind giving them a try.

I doubt I am alone in this and its why the game is still challenging for those of us who do not "live" guildwars. Plus some of us have a slower learning process, so we are still playing around with older builds in older areas and have not moved on to the new and improved builds, Like perma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As the game aged it got easier. Not because we as players got better but because more and more additions made the game more and more simple. This isn't acceptable.

I can understand that. But its still the players personal choice whether to use over powered (little to no weakness) builds. Using builds that are not over powered don't make them useless, it just means they have a bigger weakness to exploit so it proves more challenging to run those builds. So players can still get a challenge out of the game if they want it or the can opt for the easier route.

As for being handicapped due to additions, lets say those additions were never added. After four years, don't you think people would still find the game too easy with having discovered every way to bypass the hardest parts by now? Granted, I doubt we would have as many speedclears. But besides that the game would still be viewed much the same. Those overpowered additions didn't really change anything, they just made it much more evident on what could be used to "exploit" a games weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When something is overpowered you nerf it. If a certain build is soooo much better than any other build you have to balance it out, otherwise the game loses variety and it decays.

I agree with this to a certain point. Change is not always bad, but where do we draw the line? If anything and everything that is good gets nerfed, what are we left with? At the same time, if it just runs in a never ending cycle and these skills are nerfed while others are buffed, what difference does it really make? Yes we have new and refreshing tactics, but in the end its always overpowered. So we end up right where we started and eventually we are backed into a corner with no other options, no new changes and very few choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The whole point of PvE skills may to be overpowered, sure, or it might be the first wave of testing things that aren't affected by PvP. One thing *MANY* players were vocal about were apparently some of their builds being runined due to PvP balance. And no, you no longer have to "work" to become powerful, raising your rank equal to the PvE skill will only have a marginal effect - which is better since previously you became more powerful the more you grinded, turning GW into the one thing it set not to become: time>skill! Do you really want GW to be the shitfest that is other MMO's??

To the first part, I say this. PvP and PvE need to remain seperate. PvE is about cooperation and storyline. PvP is about cooperation and competition. Skill balance and a sense of fair play is a must in PvP and I fully support nerfing any and all unfair builds and skills. But in PvE, when the only downfall to "godmode" is personal opinion (who makes more money, who finishes first and so on) "Balance" is different. There is no competition in PvE outside self created ego. We want to have more money, nicer items and better skills than anyone else, even at the cost of other peoples enjoyment. This is not right.

I do not agree with not requiring to work to become powerful. I work my booty off for the little bit of reward I get and I am ok with that. But I'm far from all powerful even considering the amount of time and work I'v invested. So it does require work to get a stronger character, be it farming gold or practicing with skills.

As for the last part, Guildwars has already changed and theres nothing we can do. Guildwars is a grind heavy game because of lack of new content. Without the grind, hardly anyone would play because there would be nothing to do. Whats the point of getting the new item if you have nothing to use it on? This is one reason for the new Zmissions and Bounties and Zcombat. Which I love.

As for GW becoming just another "cloned" mmo. thats impossible, even with more and more "standard mmo" additions. GW has enough unique content that it will never be like the other games. Although the game has always been Time>skill. If you think about it, it takes time to develope skill. It doesn't really take skill to fail hundreds of times at something until you discover the winning method (build) and because of forums, wiki and youtube, it had nothing to do with skill after the first month prophecies was out. It takes no skill what so ever to take from those three resources and apply what works to our personal gaming routine. Atleast in pve. PvP is still Skill>Time in a sense, although every single game you will ever play is Time>Skill because as I said, it takes time to develope skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Good question. So why did they?

Why did they do a 360 on so much of their philosophy for a minority that is just as vocal and whiny but wants the complete opposite? Why did ANet cater to people who wanted imbalance, who wanted grind, who wanted to *benefit* from that grind, and who wanted a mindless game?

The bigger question is: why are you trying to defend this??

Anet changed the game because after prophecies it started to tank. Factions, as successful as it was, was not popular with the masses and GW was losing players by the dozens. In an act of desperation they made the needed changes to bring those players back while at the same time keeping enough of the original concept to keep the "core" playerbase interested, if slightly unhappy. Factions wasn't the first to introduce grinding to GW, but it was the biggest until titles and nightfall, which answered the prayers of the "solo" player. Heroes.

Guildwars was always meant to have the option to "Solo" the game, but it was misleading since for the longest time you could not "Solo" anything with most professions and the areas that anyone could solo had no real benefit.

I'm not defending the demands to change the game or the selfish reasons why people wanted the game changed in the first place. I enjoyed the original concept until the community as a whole went into the drain and had nothing to do with lack of talent, but instead bad behavior. I'm simply defending a player's right to play his/her way and enjoy the game how she/he wants. The game has already been changed whether you or I like it or not. But now that it is changed forever, why not give the PvE and PvP players what they want.

The game is aging and we need ways to keep players logging on. Trying to correct the game and return it to the original vision of what guildwars was all about in the tyrian days would not work because we have too many people who did not join until after tyria. The nightfall generation if you will. Those who did not enjoy tyria or cantha but fell inlove with the game during their adventures in elona. Yes they could be labeled many different things, but they are guildwar fans and players and deserve an equal voice.

If this was 3 years ago, I would be here saying no to titles and heroes. But those days are gone, so I'm here saying yes to new and creative builds that may or may not be overpowered. Balance pvp, please! But make pve's focus centered around insane fun and completely crazy possibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Best. Quote. Ever.

A "good game" is one that caters to many spectrums of players: those who want something serious, and those who want something loltastic. Look at TF2: It provides casual and button-mashing public server play and has a pretty decent tournament crowd. Look at WoW: you can either mess around solo or actually get serious and raid, you can do some casual BG's or get serious with Arena.

I agree completely. This is why we have PvP and PvE, GvG, Alliance Battles and Hero Battles. They should all be different, with different guidelines on how to balance it and different benefits so everyone wants to participate in each.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you wanted to just mess around in PvE, that's what NM should've been for. Instead for some reason ANet sought to make HM as easy as NM via PvE skills and other stupid crap.

The problem is, NM is practice, HM has become the true PvE environment because it offers the best XP and the best drops. Its also what the player's want to play. HM is still hard outside the godmode builds and even then if you make a mistake, you suffer. It takes skill to learn how to use overpowered builds because you have to get the correct gear and the correct skills and learn how to use the build itself.

It would be nice if we didn't need godmode, but GW is suppose to be a "Solo" friendly game, as it says on the box. This means that we get heroes and henchmen and run through the game. But since using H/H removes almost any chance of getting drops, a true "Solo" option is required, hence godmode.
So either allow godmode, or change the drop system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So what we're left with is a game with a VERY easily reached skill level and no depth. Sure there may be thousands of skills and builds you could master but it's pointless to do so when there's one or two builds on PvXwiki that trump every single one of them. As I said earlier: so much wasted potential.

Even though there are overpowered builds, people still use what they like. This has been a problem in the community for a long time. Some people want godmode, others want to use their own, self made builds inspite of whats considered the best. As for the skill level, I wouldn't say its easily reached because it takes work to get there. We don't want an unrealistically hard skill cap to work towards because then the game would not be for anyone other than those willing to "live" guildwars.

Again the problem is that people need to not gauage their personal enjoyment on the ease of others. It bothers people that you can speedclear vanquishes or elite areas or solo ecto farm. This is because they either can't or they don't want to run those builds/professions but still want to make more money than they are currently capable of making.

That boils down to two things. Jealousy which is ego, or greed. Neither of which has anything to do with fair play (balance) or the funfactor.

Avarre · Jul 09, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

If you don't like it don't use it.

It's like nobody reads posts around here.

Stop looking from a micro perspective. Yes, imbalances do not affect the single character/player in GW. However, not using them does not change the fact that the development goals for the game have clearly shifted. Nor does it refute the idea that such ridiculously imbalanced additions are the sign of poor development - the same development that is working on GW2.

People don't complain because they feel envious, or greedy. They complain because these kind of changes are stupid.

MrTickle · Jul 09, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I think this all boils down to greed. Some people just want to QQ because their uber weapons are no longer worth what they once were. They want skills nerfed to shit to make their ecto worth more.

Others want to QQ because they can.